THE ACCIDENTAL ACADEMIC- MATTHIJS VAN WOLFEREN, LLM.

Interview by: Sarah Giblin

What made you choose to study law in Groningen? 

I actually studied sciences in high school, but I didn’t really know what science degree I wanted to do in university. So, I got stuck studying law. If you go to one of those Open University days for maths or physics or to one of the engineering schools, it’s so depressing. I wanted to do something amazing and change the world, whereas all these people do is spend time in labs. 

So I thought no, I don’t want to do that and I listened to that myth that “You can always do a year in law!” and that’s what I did. 

And then your plan was to just drop out?

Well, once you have your propedeuse you can switch to something more interesting. So, when I was in the first year, I didn’t do anything, which meant that I didn’t know that I actually basically hated law. So, then I thought ‘okay, this is easy’, I got my propedeuse without actually doing anything. I just sat around and didn’t take the time to look into other degrees, to see what degrees I would actually like, as I didn’t know where to start. I completely hated doing law, especially the Dutch law approach. All the first year and second year subjects are so formalistic. So, I did everything else…I joined the University Board, I rowed etc. And at a certain point in time, things become inevitable. 

So you thought “Now I’m stuck here so I should probably just stay here and make the best of it”?

Yes, which is exactly what happened. And for my Masters, I fell in love with Environmental law. It gave me the idea that I could actually do something that changes the world. So, it’s the nerdy side of the science degree and it’s nice to be one of the few lawyers in the room who knows what the geek is talking about when he’s talking about the climate and environmental mitigation. And it’s the silent hope that somewhere along the way I can do something for the world. All my friends are now lawyers at corporate firms and I just can’t see myself in corporate law. 

You’re fairly optimistic that with Environmental law you will change something?

Well, in general, we can say that it actually works. The technical aspect of it and the way in which we interweave science with the law is actually fairly nice. None of the Member States do that; it’s only because of EU law that there is actually a scientific approach to law. And so in my Master’s Degree, Laurence (Professor Gormley) picked me up and said: “Look, you’re actually quite clever. Although your undergrad grades don’t prove it, your Master’s grades surely do”. I hated exams; I still hate exams, I’m still crap at them. Now, on the other hand, every essay I wrote got high marks, so I got the chance to start teaching here. So, then they liked me and they said: “Why don’t you stick around here and do a Ph.D.?” And, well, that’s the story actually. 

But then you decided to do your Ph.D. on judicial standing, so that’s not really environmental law?

Yes, but it is though. It is really difficult for public interest litigants and environmental NGO’s to bring complaints to the Court of Justice. And I never understood why they interpreted this notion of ‘individual concern’ in such a strict way and I thought that they should do it differently. I wanted to know why the Court interpreted it in this way and wanted a reason for it. So, I wanted to address that and now there is the kind of a system in which you can say, well there’s just no competence. This is where the system fails. It’s not going to change; I’m not positive in that sense, but it is interesting. If you want to kick against something to make a change, it’s good to know against which part of this enormous lumbering beast you need to kick.  

So, would you say you prefer research or teaching more? 

I would actually say that I like teaching a lot better. Why? Okay, I don’t know, it’s difficult. On the one hand, when I’ve actually found something that interests me, I enjoy the creativity you can use in doing actual research and when you publish something interesting that’s really a kick and a rush. Especially when you’re excited about the idea and you know that people are actually reading this! And one of the things that I like best about research is that you get to meet so many interesting people. I now have a friend in Edinburgh who does UK environmental law from an EU perspective and it’s really nice if I’m in Edinburgh to ring him and say “Hey, are you up for a pint?”. So, this is one of the aspects that I really like about research. 

However, I love teaching because it’s nice to have this concrete sense of the fact that you can do something, especially when you see the realisation in certain peoples’ eyes... that they actually understand and are thinking of their own questions. I like to get people to see my points. I don’t want to be like certain colleagues I know, with meta points and rants against the church. It’s the small things such as when I get people to take an interest or when Sally completely analysed the case on the OV Jaarkaart. The payoff is different. There is so much more of a kick. I am way more nervous about teaching and preparing for teaching and actual interactions with students than for presenting research to peers. 

You went to the Harvard World MUN in Scotland and China. Would you ever like to work for the United Nations or work in International law?

Hell no! When I did those MUNs. that was a period where I wanted to do anything else but study law. MUNs are fun; it’s a really nice international community. I’d recommend it to anyone. I met a lot of people, especially international people. It’s nice to get drunk on a Chinese Bullet train, from Beijing to Shanghai, and sing native songs. Especially when you can get the Germans to drink and have fun. But if it taught me anything, it’s that the whole UN system is totally defective and I wouldn’t say that it doesn’t have any relevance, but I have no idea what those people actually think they’re doing. It just doesn’t make enough of a difference. 

And I like to debate, but it’s the same thing actually with that. I used to love debate, but more and more now I’m just in this mode of I would rather just do something, I would rather teach and have the hope that some idiot actually changes his opinion than enter into a debate where it is all about winning; it’s just so useless. 

It was a nice experience and I met a lot of cool people, many of whom I still speak to, but I would never go again and I wouldn’t work in International law. 

What is the most interesting thing you know about EU law?

Oh, Jesus. Well, the Bird’s Directive. The Bird’s Directive is the first piece of real environmental legislation they undertook in 1979. It’s pretty old and it came quickly after the declarations on environmental law. However, this is why I actually applied to BirdLife International; I wanted to know a little bit more about this, such as why this is the first part of environmental legislation and why is everyone so upset about birds of all things? It’s 1979, the world’s burning and there’s a Cold War and birds are the most important thing? 

The answer is rich people with too much time on their hands. Bird protection societies are the oldest environmental protection societies in the world because these rich, old idiots love bird watching! And it is the most amazing thing. It is still one of the strongest pieces of environmental legislation; there is such a strict regime on the protection of birds. I like how these stupid situations have such an effect on history. 

Is there anything that you haven’t done that you still want to do, what are you going to do after your Ph.D.? 

Oh, yeah. Thanks for Bringing that up, Sarah (said with an immense level of sarcasm). I have no idea. Sometimes I get this idea that I’m not doing enough. So the book/ Ph.D. is almost finished and it’s like 300 pages of bullshit in print-form that no-one is ever going to read except for my reading committee and a couple of my students who think I will be impressed if they can cite me on the exam. So, sometimes I think I should leave Academia and do something for an NGO. I mean, I like academia, but one of the things that keeps on bothering me is that this works for now but when am I going to be like an old creepy kid who tries to keep up with the youth and is losing it? 

Other than that…I have a really good friend who is a children’s book illustrator, Chuck. He does really wonderful work and, if it’s allowed, he is going to illustrate the cover of my Ph.D. I would love to write a children’s book with Chuck. The idea is that children aren’t anything special; they are just younger people. But you can still get away with a lot of crap because children just accept it. 

What is your favourite thing to do in Groningen?

So, over the years I’ve gotten to know way too many people in the hospitality sector. My personal saying is “Home is where you don’t need to have a wallet to get a drink”. Most of my normal places will stand me a drink and know that I’m good for it somewhere along the line. The thing I like most is, well I’m a coeliac, and Ariola on the Folkingestraat every Wednesday makes Risotto and over the years they have become my Italian mothers, and they really mother me. So every Wednesday I go there during lunch and I have a risotto and for me, they put it on a proper plate and give me proper cutlery. And that is just one of the things that I really love and the fact that it’s a really welcoming town. It’s very easy to connect with these people and to integrate yourself. 

Must-read book…if you can think of one that’s not a law book?

Solomon Gursky was Here. I’ve read it so often. It is a book by a Canadian author called Mordecai Richler. For some reason during high school I fell into Judaica, so the Jewish style of writing in America. And then I stumbled into Mordecai Richler because he wrote children’s books as well. He has very uplifting children’s books and his adult literature is so dark and bleak and nice. It’s about a reporter who gets obsessed with one the history behind one of the brothers of a prohibition years’ alcohol running family, a bootlegging family, and now they’re a legit company and they try to bury the history of one of the brothers because they don’t want to put too much emphasis on the fact they had this illegal thing going on. It’s not a true story but it does have all these elements of truth in it. It’s so weird and wonderful and filled with alcoholism and yeah it’s amazing. And it has just the right amount of fantasy and rawness in it. 

Favourite place to go on holidays?

I haven’t been on a holiday for five years now. What I miss the most is real nature. I hate the fact that in the Netherlands we don’t have nature. I’d like to go to the Ancient Forests in Poland and Belarus, because I love history as well. I’d have to just say somewhere remote, without cell phone coverage, in nature. There’s an absolute necessity for no cell phone coverage. 

Favourite quote?

I don’t really do quotes. I’ve never seen the use of quotes, it’s just a quip by someone. I mean there are so many people that just have wonderful once-offs and wonderful lines. Have you ever heard of Dorothy Parker? She was just amazingly fast and she had amazingly wonderful responses. And of course there are some quotes that are inspirational, but I don’t do inspirational texts. I think most quotes are completely idiotic out of context and I just don’t have time for them. It’s not that I don’t think that people don’t come up with wonderful things, but I don’t see why we should idealize or give further meaning to quotes. 

Advice for future academics or lawyers?

I always hate it when people say “Do what you love” because that’s too easy because you can learn to love anything. Even when you finish your degree, you’re like 21-23 years. So much stuff happens that you haven’t seen yet and you don’t know if you’re going to love it or not. I think my advice would be to step out of your bubble; you don’t realise that you’re on a one-way track until it is way too late and then you need to make an enormous effort to change. Everybody is interesting and when you meet people and you talk to them you realise that there is so much interesting stuff there. Put yourself out there and meet interesting people. That’s the best way to learn what you actually want to do with yourself. You can always change what you want to do. So, that would be my advice. 

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